JELabs sez "Esskay"

Just out of -- academic -- curiosity... how stock was/is that SCA35? Askin' for a friend ;)

lively thunk -- I am not exactly sure what that means, sonically speaking, but I do like the phrase.

:)

AFAIK, stock circuit with some cap upgrades. I saw a Silbatone SE300B that was in the midst of an upgrade so we couldn’t listen with that.

Magico cabinet = dead, hurt my knuckles when I knocked on it. Altec 618 clone = alive.
 
I've tried a set in the recommended Altec 618 enclosure, but even with the Versa-Pak damping, they still sound pretty damn chesty. Any suggestions as to what I might be doing wrong?


Try a slab of 1" rigid rockwool across the interior of the cab. 13 bucks shipped for a 24x48 sheet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZI4T1U/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The original 618 cab had a piece of pink rigid fiberglas, owens corning. 703 running on a diagonal from side panel to side panel.

The thing about damping is that it is most effective out in the space of the cab instead of along the walls, if you can keep it there.

I forget what i did with the boxes JE snagged. They were probably minimally stuffed though. could have been paper or recycled denim....not sure.. No big problem with chesty colorations.

Anyway, JE, now I got my klangfilm horns/JBL 2440s going on top of the 728Bs. Way more dramatic and quite intense. Wild 3-D. Very promising.

Trying to stay off forums somewhat and get some projects finished!!

IMG_0006.JPG
 
Yup, I saw the JBL and those horns.

He's lying, folks! Everybody knows I hate JBL.

A pr of WE594As would be nice, but no gots.

Not sure what else I can use for 2" Alnico.

The 2440s have Radian diaphragms so they are not actually JBL anymore. They are OK, I guess, but some characteristics I do not like. I think I need to pull the bug screens and put original diaphragms in.

I could use 288s with 1.4->2" adapters but then the assembly will get quite long and won't conveniently fit on top of those cabinets anymore.

Decisions decisions.
 
He's lying, folks! Everybody knows I hate JBL.
A pr of WE594As would be nice, but no gots.

Is there a GIP 594A?

I could use 288s with 1.4->2" adapters but then the assembly will get quite long and won't conveniently fit on top of those cabinets anymore.
Decisions decisions.

Altec...yum!

How about a metal stand to hold the 288 behind the cabinet?
 
Yeah, theres a few models of GIP 594A, all of which cost more than my car per unit.

There was actually a PM 594B made by Altec in the 60s for NASA flight simulators. I think they made like two dozen units. There is one in the Silbatone collection branded "Ling," from when LTV was a big defense contractor (and owned Altec). Blue paint, not green. Rare stuff.

Not much chance of finding a pr of those, I fear.

The guy who did the machine work for the adapters on the horns has 2440s and he removed the bug screens at my suggestion a decade or two ago. He brought it up. Said night and day difference. Could barely stand the JBLs with the screens. So, maybe that should my next step.

How about a metal stand to hold the 288 behind the cabinet?

Trying to avoid such ghetto rig-ups if at all possible.

I need to build cabs for my GIP 18" woofs that will comfortably seat a long horn on top. For now, though, I'll see if I can get a decent two way with the 728Bs going. Some combination of 288s, 802s, 2440s, EH-500, 32Bs, KLs, KS12024s should work.
 
Someday....Someday, I’ll acquire a pair of 288’s and nice multicell horns...

I haven’t given up on it yet.
 
J-Rob,
I think you got those 2440's from me over on the AK site. I couldn't get them to sound good as a two way. They struggle with higher frequencies. They did perform well as a mid range with a super tweeter on top. I have JBL 2450's with Truextent diaphragms that sound glorious to me in a two way. Large format CD's are wonderful. Maybe I need to find a pair of 288's also. Have not tried anything in the 1.4-1.5 inch format range.
 
Yeah, I think you're right Mike.

I'm not convinced about these Radian diaphragms. They are not horrible but do lack definition on top and the usual sparkle I have come to expect. I have a pr of NOS JBL 2440 frams to try and that might open things up.

I have had these and 375s before...never liked them, compared with WE and Altec. But I need 2" so what can I do? I think a lot of the lenses and horns JBL used sucked and hoped that the drivers would perform better on a known good horn.

I believe that the bug screen removal might be a major enhancement. I spread that idea after trying it on 802s, maybe I even published this hint, and my bud Spence tried it on his 2440s. His exact words: "I couldn't even listen to those things before I pulled the bug screens."

This guy is an advanced hardcore old head I have been in contact with for 30 years. I believe him.

i have tried many three ways and still own a couple different high eff tweeters. Two way has ALWAYS been better for me. Better to EQ if necessary and skip the tweeter, at least I think so.

After a couple prs of expensive TADs, I'll never try beryllium again. Yeah, there are highs but I think it is simply uncorrelated tizz. Fries my brain. I only need 12-13k but let's have it in step with the inout signal, shall we?

The natural behavior of a large format driver is more or less flat to 5-6k, then a 6db/oct rolloff above that due to the mass of the diaphragm, cf. 288 and WE 594A, which are textbook. When you see drivers going out to 18-20k, I'd be very suspicious that they are not using resonances to fill in the curve, just like dome tweeters.
 
Hi Joe,
I certainly agree with you on 2 ways and much of your advise on speakers ( especially regarding Altec 414’s), and I know of your dislike for Be diaphragms. I like them on the 2450 better than TAD 2001. Probably because it rolls off sooner or maybe I like the tizz.

I do need to try the bug screen thing one of these days. Curious how you like the 2440’s after the diaphragm change.
 
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Joe... What did you use in the Emi 500's?

Kinda disappointed in your opinion of Be. Are you sure all Be is created equal? Maybe a little network magic to take out the nasty's? Like you said- two way is THE way to go and Be sure seems like a good solution to eke out that last little bit of top end one needs on the bigger format CD's.

How about a pic of the back of the Klangfilm Horn. Whenever I think Klangfilm horns I always picture the one's w the long throat in the ultra cool industrial chic OB's. And... How low them go?

cat_europa.jpg
 
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That Klangfilm you picture is a super interesting prewar speaker, called the Europa Junior. The HF driver is a ribbon! The LF cone is armature driven. There is a magnetic rod that passes through the magnet and that is connected to the apex of the cone. It is a really different sounding, amazing speaker.

The model I hear in the Silbatone collection actually has two HF drivers and a forked horn (Europa a.k.a Europa Klarton). I have pics of the mechanism if i can find them. I assume that the Junior has the same driver technology as the Klarton, but I don't know this for sure.

These were sometimes installed with a large W horn in front of the woofer for some good LF coupling to the room. Never heard that setup but I suspect it is a mighty sound.

Klangfilm gear is good stuff. Seldom, if ever, heard on this continent. I am lost in the German gear world beyond a few famous items I know fairly well. There's a lot of weird old German theater and pro gear out there.

-----------------

On Beryllium, the context is this...All compression drivers have a mass rolloff due to the mass of the diaphragm. An Altec 288 or predecessor WE 594A are typical for large format aluminum. 6dB/oct rolloff from ~6kc.

Notably, this is the typical response of constant directionality horns, which do not supply the on-axis EQ of exponentials. You get the raw driver response, basically, across a large solid angle.

Drivers that go way higher are employing tricks. Yes, a lighter diaphragm might move faster and have a somewhat higher knee, but I don't think they will go much higher even if super light.

What a lot of dome tweeters and I suspect Be compression drivers do is ring like a mofo above the typical range, which looks like a desired signal on a meter but is it in time with and correlated with the input signal? Questionable.

My Beryllium experience is limited to TAD 2001s and 4004s. I wanted to like them. Couldn't stand them. They fried my brain. Felt bored and detached listening to these dogs. Went back to Altec.

The antique Klangfilm Europa might only go to 8 or 9k max, but it sounds natural. Most classic theater drivers will reach 11-13k EQed or on the right beamy horn and that is all I need for satisfying and realistic listening. i mean realistic in terms of having a tonal balance and presentation reminiscent of actual live music.

I usually hear 4-8 concerts a month, all genres, and I am just not getting the assertive detail and HF energy many audio nerds valorize when sitting in the Kennedy Center, acoustic, amplified, large or small rooms, jazz, vocals, symphony orchestra, whatever. Violins can do HF tricks that i don't think most speakers can simulate but on the whole audio has way more highs than live. Not always good highs either.

I am hesitant to spend Beryllium money only to end up with more fancy junk that is too hifi to enjoy. Maybe the new generation of diaphragms are beyond this, but I seriously doubt it. I'd give them a listen if the opportunity presents itself, but I'm not chasing more detail and tizz than I am hearing right now with 802s and EH500s.

Yeah, I'm 58 and can only solidly hear maybe 12k at the concert, but I am still 58 when listening to speakers, and the balance is too often radically-off in the HF direction. this greatly effects the way IO relate to the music. Live, I listen hard into the music, working at it. Often, hifi is like getting sprayed with a music hose. If it's gonna be leaning that that way, I prefer not using the pinpoint hose nozzle.
 
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I usually hear 4-8 concerts a month, all genres, and I am just not getting the assertive detail and HF energy many audio nerds valorize when sitting in the Kennedy Center, acoustic, amplified, large or small rooms, jazz, vocals, symphony orchestra, whatever. Violins can do HF tricks that i don't think most speakers can simulate but on the whole audio has way more highs than live. Not always good highs either.
The profundity and truth of these comments cannot be over-emphasized. I think of this every time I hear real live music.
 
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