Phono Stages, What Goes Around Comes Around

[JohnVF]

I wrote to Darlington Labs with a couple of questions around what would be best if I was just running MM and they gave me a quick, very detailed, reply within an hour... I really like this company even before considering sound quality. The gist is that the MP8b would still have the better MM stage despite having MC capability, but that the M6B is close to the older M7 (non B). All food for thought.

I need to sell a few things but for space reasons alone I need a smaller-footprint phono stage. I might run my iPhono2 (with its bigger-than-itself Sbooster PS) in the meantime...depends how a comparison goes.

With the Primare vs Decade direct comparison I did a few days ago, I could see somebody gushing over the Decade when I put it in...its brighter, noticeably more "detailed" (mostly because its brighter). Change is a drug. In reality they're both incredibly good phono stages and the Primare is, honestly, probably a better longer-listen preamp. The Decade can presents itself, as the kids say, a bit DTM (doin' too much). There's a reason I've had the Primare for a very long time. There's a certain hi-fi-ness to the Decade that the Primare doesn't convey. It's the cliche 'musicality' thing and the Primare really has it.

 

[adaug]

I went to swap the Primare and Decade the other day and the Primare wouldn't even fit in the cabinet in the living room.

At least everything is spaced out! I don't post this to criticize the Primare other than its size...it's a very nice sounding phono stage and has been my 2nd system stage for many years. It's pretty funny but was a perfect size-match for the line-stage. Primare kind of flies under the radar in the US. That era of Primare was really good... I debate replacing my 3rd setup with an integrated from that era of Primare (I had the preamp) but I just bought something vintage for that stereo, and it's working out.

View attachment 74275

wow - that primare is the poster child for wasted space. perhaps the designer would argue that the power supply needs some distance, but if thats the case it could go in its own separate small box. i recently picked up an e-glo petit phono stage - small-ish size and excellent sound. and key - the adjustments can be made from the front.

 

[JohnVF]

wow - that primare is the poster child for wasted space. perhaps the designer would argue that the power supply needs some distance, but if thats the case it could go in its own separate small box. i recently picked up an e-glo petit phono stage - small-ish size and excellent sound. and key - the adjustments can be made from the front.

It’s gigantic! But I really like it. It sounds fantastic with the MM carts I’ve been playing with recently.

Yesterday I swapped the much more expensive two-box Lehmann decade in its place and immediately put the Primare back. It just has more “body”. The decade was more detailed but brighter and sounded less …organic? It was more “audiophile”.

 

[MWalt]

I’m on my third Mani 2 after trying a couple of other units, including a Darlington Labs MP5, which was good but didn’t bring anything superior to the Mani 2. I see the view of the mountain top @JohnVF speaks of, maybe that’s good enough for now. I’m burned up with the journey for the moment. I’m still buying records though.

I have the Schiit Mani2 also. I bought it after my much more expensive IFi Micro IPhono3 Black Label crapped out on me. I like it the more I use it. I sometimes alternate it with the Lounge LCRIII but I have been giving the Mani2 more playing time. The LCRIII is weird in that it hums with the ground wire connected. If I remove the ground, it goes away.

FWIW the Iphono3 was really good. Losing it really dampened my enthusiasm for spending real money on my analog gear.

 

[MikeT.]

@MWalt , I feel your frustration. However good the Mani 2 is, remember I purchased three of them, it always seemed to be a little untruthful at the high end. And by that I mean not grating or harsh, sounding good but ever so slightly just barely over-the-top, a sweet one-note high end. It’s a wonderful phono preamp and is the most amazingly flexible unit at its price. I’ve used one with moving coil and moving magnet carts and experienced the same thing.

I’ve been trying to understand the love of vinyl (rekkids) so many people gush about. I’ve had turntables and turntables and turntables, I’ve had cartridges of all types, multiple times, looking for nirvana. So far, the component that’s moved me closer to rekkids is a really good phono preamp, like my Graham Slee Reflex M. Maybe like your iFi Micro Phono3 Black. I’ve seen many well-respected folks, at least for me, sing praises of the iFi phono Black (I owned one of their mid-range DACs and loved it).
I wandered in the phono preamp wilderness for a long time and struggled with the idea of spending a lot of money on a phono preamp.

I’m betting you might get back your enthusiasm for records with your proven winner, an iFi Black (no affiliation). I regularly see that unit pop up from time to time, lightly used for much less than the grand they ask for new. I got lucky with my Graham Slee (no affiliation) when a Reflex M shows up slightly used for a very good price. They actually have a factory sponsored loaner program. That’s how I got to audition one for almost a month. (Really, seriously no affiliation).

Go get that enthusiasm back! Jus’ sayin’. And Good Luck..🍀

 

[JohnVF]

@MWalt , I feel your frustration. However good the Mani 2 is, remember I purchased three of them, it always seemed to be a little untruthful at the high end. And by that I mean not grating or harsh, sounding good but ever so slightly just barely over-the-top, a sweet one-note high end. It’s a wonderful phono preamp and is the most amazingly flexible unit at its price. I’ve used one with moving coil and moving magnet carts and experienced the same thing.

I’ve been trying to understand the love of vinyl (rekkids) so many people gush about. I’ve had turntables and turntables and turntables, I’ve had cartridges of all types, multiple times, looking for nirvana. So far, the component that’s moved me closer to rekkids is a really good phono preamp, like my Graham Slee Reflex M. Maybe like your iFi Micro Phono3 Black. I’ve seen many well-respected folks, at least for me, sing praises of the iFi phono Black (I owned one of their mid-range DACs and loved it).
I wandered in the phono preamp wilderness for a long time and struggled with the idea of spending a lot of money on a phono preamp.

I’m betting you might get back your enthusiasm for records with your proven winner, an iFi Black (no affiliation). I regularly see that unit pop up from time to time, lightly used for much less than the grand they ask for new. I got lucky with my Graham Slee (no affiliation) when a Reflex M shows up slightly used for a very good price. They actually have a factory sponsored loaner program. That’s how I got to audition one for almost a month. (Really, seriously no affiliation).

Go get that enthusiasm back! Jus’ sayin’. And Good Luck..🍀

If given the choice between spending big money on a cart or big money on a phono-preamp, I would choose the phono preamp 10 out of 10 times (plus I know enough about old carts now to find a great one under the radar).

I listen to a friend's Mani2 regularly, it's a nice phono stage. It's not one of those things that sinks the addiction hook in, but it doesn't do anything wrong and conveys what it needs to. The issue I have with that level is that it's not the "doing its job" part of vinyl that hooks me. It's the next level where it does the things you didn't think it could do. Beyond tonality and realism, there's often less overt surface noise/pops/clicks as the better stage can handle peak overloads better, etc. A good stage just transforms the experience, for me at least. And they're not always crazy-expensive- I think I paid $700-ish for my Primare and around the same for my Juicy Music Tercell II. My Lehmann Decade was far more but honestly it wasn't an overt improvement. I have my eyes on Darlington Labs... mentioned in this thread many times.

 

[MWalt]

@MWalt , I feel your frustration. However good the Mani 2 is, remember I purchased three of them, it always seemed to be a little untruthful at the high end. And by that I mean not grating or harsh, sounding good but ever so slightly just barely over-the-top, a sweet one-note high end. It’s a wonderful phono preamp and is the most amazingly flexible unit at its price. I’ve used one with moving coil and moving magnet carts and experienced the same thing.

I’ve been trying to understand the love of vinyl (rekkids) so many people gush about. I’ve had turntables and turntables and turntables, I’ve had cartridges of all types, multiple times, looking for nirvana. So far, the component that’s moved me closer to rekkids is a really good phono preamp, like my Graham Slee Reflex M. Maybe like your iFi Micro Phono3 Black. I’ve seen many well-respected folks, at least for me, sing praises of the iFi phono Black (I owned one of their mid-range DACs and loved it).
I wandered in the phono preamp wilderness for a long time and struggled with the idea of spending a lot of money on a phono preamp.

I’m betting you might get back your enthusiasm for records with your proven winner, an iFi Black (no affiliation). I regularly see that unit pop up from time to time, lightly used for much less than the grand they ask for new. I got lucky with my Graham Slee (no affiliation) when a Reflex M shows up slightly used for a very good price. They actually have a factory sponsored loaner program. That’s how I got to audition one for almost a month. (Really, seriously no affiliation).

Go get that enthusiasm back! Jus’ sayin’. And Good Luck..🍀

I honestly appreciate your vote of confidence. I have been through some really good turntables, some really good phono cartridges and the one decent phono preamp that shit the bed on me, but I have never given up on vinyl. Mostly because I still like it. And I have a lot of good records. Maybe a top-notch phono preamp will vault me back into the game. Who knows? I work from home, so I spend a lot of time at my desk. I have a great desktop system and stream all day. Regardless, the TT is part of my main system and I like vinyl to relax down in the man cave.

That synergy thing-The Mani2 seems to work well in combination with the Technics SL-1210/AT740ML and my KEF R700's. The KEFS are slightly on the dark side of neutral and the above combination seems to groove well together. Adding the Achromat livened up the response as well. Pretty happy with it for now.

 

[MikeT.]

Regardless, the TT is part of my main system and I like vinyl to relax down in the man cave.

During my audition period of the Reflex M, I was and now am able to relax in my man cave with my favorite records. My only problem now is making the decision of what favorite I listen to next.

 

[theflattire]

Today, I got this:



I got it for the work rig, mainly because I kept forgetting to turn the EAR clone off.
Wanted something SS I could just leave on without worry.
Came up on eBay and I thought it was interesting, as it was PS Audio's first ever product. That's a little fuzzy though as I read it was supposed to be op amps and this looks discrete.
Not a PS Audio fan boy or anything, but I like his videos and his philosophy.
Hopefully it's a bit better than the Bugle 3.
Sounding good going through a James Audio SUT, pushing a Koetsu Black Goldline.

Nudie courtesy of the seller:

 

[JohnVF]

Today, I got this:

View attachment 78274

I got it for the work rig, mainly because I kept forgetting to turn the EAR clone off.
Wanted something SS I could just leave on without worry.
Came up on eBay and I thought it was interesting, as it was PS Audio's first ever product. That's a little fuzzy though as I read it was supposed to be op amps and this looks discrete.
Not a PS Audio fan boy or anything, but I like his videos and his philosophy.
Hopefully it's a bit better than the Bugle 3.
Sounding good going through a James Audio SUT, pushing a Koetsu Black Goldline.

Nudie courtesy of the seller:

View attachment 78275

That's just straight up neat and cool. Almost cute. I'm curious how it sounds as you run it in more.

 

[Rudy]

That's just straight up neat and cool. Almost cute.

There's quite a story behind it. As I recall, with it being their first product, they had to convince buyers and dealers that a separate phono stage would sound better than what was built into a product already (as separate phono stages were uncommon back then). It was a lot of effort just to get others to listen to it, in other words.

 

[JohnVF]

There's quite a story behind it. As I recall, with it being their first product, they had to convince buyers and dealers that a separate phono stage would sound better than what was built into a product already (as separate phono stages were uncommon back then). It was a lot of effort just to get others to listen to it, in other words.

I’m assuming then that it came before the Vendetta phono pre? Speaking of which I’m debating between options for endgame phono preamps and the Parasund JC3+, which is related to the vendetta, is in the running. Though I’m leaning towards the Darlington MP8

 

[Rudy]

I’m assuming then that it came before the Vendetta phono pre?

I had to go reread the bio again. Their phono preamp was first sold in 1975, via an ad they took out in Audio magazine. $59.95.

 

[JohnVF]

I had to go reread the bio again. Their phono preamp was first sold in 1975, via an ad they took out in Audio magazine. $59.95.

That’s cool. I’d love to hear it! I’m a bit obsessed with phono stages.

 

[Tables_and_Tubes]

I’m assuming then that it came before the Vendetta phono pre? Speaking of which I’m debating between options for endgame phono preamps and the Parasund JC3+, which is related to the vendetta, is in the running. Though I’m leaning towards the Darlington MP8

Do buy the MP8 😉. I am thinking about upgrading my 7 all the way to the new 8. Love to read your thoughts on it!

Dan

 

[JohnVF]

Do buy the MP8 😉. I am thinking about upgrading my 7 all the way to the new 8. Love to read your thoughts on it!

Dan

I talked with Keith about it at Axpona, I liked everything about it except having to get inside it to adjust the settings. But I also get why it’s like that.

The only other stage I’m considering is the JC3+…which I would buy used… with no real way to hear either.

 

[theflattire]

The post from PS Audio on the phono stage:

The very first product

When we first started PS, back in 1973, we had only one product: a phono preamp. This preamp was a standalone phono stage (turntable preamp) that sounded really quite good. In fact, it was this phono stage that first brought Stan and I together as partners. I had designed the phono stage as a...

www.psaudio.com

Interesting how their 'break through' was via a competitor.

 

[JohnVF]

The post from PS Audio on the phono stage:

The very first product

When we first started PS, back in 1973, we had only one product: a phono preamp. This preamp was a standalone phono stage (turntable preamp) that sounded really quite good. In fact, it was this phono stage that first brought Stan and I together as partners. I had designed the phono stage as a...

www.psaudio.com

Interesting how their 'break through' was via a competitor.

That's a great story! Though, I've had a Dynaco PAT-4, grew up with one, actually, and...it doesn't take much to beat the phono stage in a Dynaco PAT-4.

 

[JohnVF]

Reading further its interesting that they benchmarked the Audio Research SP-3a1. I have one of those, too (at least, its still in my family), and its a nice sounding phono stage which I used to compare my first decent external stage to, a DB-systems DB-8 (which is also still around here somewhere). And the DB-8 and the SP-3a1's phono stage were quite similar, at least when running through the SP-3a1.

What a cool way to start a company.

 

[Rudy]

That's a great story!

I didn't realize it was a post up there--I was almost at the point of scanning the pages out of the book. 😁